As the insurance industry continues to navigate evolving market dynamics, address demand for new products, and endure the impact of the pandemic, how can carriers successfully embrace change and nurture innovation to successfully meet new market and customer expectations?
On this episode of AI Wisdom – Talking Insurance Innovation, Ron Glozman, CEO, Chisel AI speaks with Amy Radin, author of The Change Maker’s Playbook: How to Seek, Seed and Scale Innovation in Any Company, about seeding innovation with a purpose, accelerating the ability to gain competitive advantage, deepening customer relationships, and successfully adapting to new market and customer expectations.
A 2020 book excellence award winner for best business book, Amy Radin is a growth advisor and problem solver for fintech and martech businesses. Amy has 25 years of experience as a Fortune 100 marketing, digital and innovation operator in payments, consumer lending and insurance at brands including American Express, Citi, E*TRADE, and AXA. She advises boards and executive teams on scaling technologies that address strong market needs and have demonstrated viability. Amy is a member of the Fast Company Executive Board. She has been recognized by US Banker as a Most Powerful Woman in Banking, by NYU Stern Graduate School of Business as a recipient of the Nichols Award for Enterprise, Integrity and Service, and by BusinessWeek as a Top 25 Global Champion of Innovation.
Early on, Amy recognized that her expertise as a data-driven marketer could meet rising demands for large-scale digital transformation. She established one of the first corporate innovation teams, piloting business model breakthroughs, and building capabilities in risk-focused, highly regulated financial services companies. She pioneered 21st-century marketing and digital practices within the insurance sector.
To Amy, digital transformation starts with her proven pragmatic nine-step Seek, Seed and Scale framework which includes a methodology for how to make customer insight-based discoveries, how to build and validate a viable real-world business model, and how to anticipate and deliver on continuously changing customer needs.
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Amy Radin believes that transformation starts with cultural transformation, and that transformation begins with the C-Suite. Amy shares her insights on the definition of purpose, the importance of structuring innovation with a distinct emphasis on culture, and the critical role culture plays in successfully driving innovation, coupled with the importance of establishing a North Star.
Just like Nationwide Vice President, Commercial Lines Underwriting and Product, Tony Fenton shared that establishing your North Star is key to aligning operational strategies, Amy gives similar advice to insurance C-suite executives. What’s the company’s vision of the future? Not just in terms of how big it wants its balance sheet to be or what it wants to be rated in brand recognition, or how much money it wants to make, but what customers does it want to serve going forward, what marketplace problems does the company want to solve, and then make sure the organization understands that purpose.
She also shares her experiences with how to remove blockers to innovation, best practices for testing and the importance of two-way communication.
To hear more about how to seek, seed and scale innovation, click play below to listen to the full episode (listening time: 36 minutes) or read the full transcript.
Ron: Hello and welcome to “AI Wisdom – Talking Innovation in Insurance.” On this podcast we talk to business and insurtech leaders about how artificial intelligence is transforming the way we buy and sell insurance. I am your host Ron Glozman, Founder and CEO of Chisel AI and a strong believer in the power of AI to help people work smart and enrich their lives. So, let us get into it.
I’m very pleased to have Amy Radin, bestselling author of The Change Maker’s Playbook: How to Seek, Seed and Scale Innovation in Any Company, join me today as we discuss strategies for seeding innovation with a purpose, accelerating the ability to gain competitive advantage, deepening customer relationships, and successfully adapting to change to new market and customer expectations. Welcome, Amy.
Amy: Thanks so much for having me.
Ron: Thank you so much for joining us. Before we jump into our conversation, can you please introduce yourself?
Amy: I’m Amy Radin, and prior to my career as an author, I spent about 25 years in the corporate world, always in consumer financial services and insurance at companies like Citigroup, AXA, E-Trade, and American Express. At AXA, I was the chief marketing officer for the U.S business and at Citi, I led the digital transformation of the credit card business and was the company’s first chief innovation officer. So, a lot of background in how you drive innovation in these highly regulated, very traditional, and successful organizations that still need to change. For the last couple of years, I’ve been doing advisory work mostly for seed-stage and other early-stage startup companies in a variety of sectors and serving on a board as well as out speaking about my book. So, great to be here.
Ron: Awesome, that’s a great background. I’d like to go back though maybe till the first of those 25 years, why did you get into insurance? What attracted you to the profession?
Amy: Well, I’m the kind of person, maybe I’m a glutton for punishment, but I really like those big, hairy challenges and having spent a long time in the credit card industry and then in retail banking and retail brokerage, the opportunity came along to join the insurance sector. I had had some exposure to insurance products in the banking world because obviously, that’s an important distribution channel for certain insurance products and it just struck me that as much as the consumer banking sector has to play catch up on customer expectations of digital experience, and how the business model needed to evolve, the insurance sector was even in some ways further behind. So, I said to myself, wow, this is an incredible opportunity to bring what I know from an adjacent sector into the insurance and help have an impact plus an opportunity to learn about a new business, with my sleeves rolled up, which is always, I think the best way to learn.
Ron: That’s definitely the best way to learn and I think certainly that banking experience would come in handy. I think they’re probably two of the most innovation-ready industries, to put it lightly.
Amy: That’s a nice way of putting it. That’s a very nice way. They’re innovation ready and I think also, hanging on to some of the orthodoxies that may be holding them back, we can’t do it because of the regulations, or we’ve always done it this way or the attitudes towards risk and managing risk and those are all real issues. But you have to find a way forward even in spite of those challenges and not see them as insurmountable obstacles, but they certainly share those concerns about risk in common with each other.
Ron: Certainly. So, in your book, The Change Maker’s Playbook: How to Seek, Seed and Scale Innovation in Any Company, you explain the value of purpose, you offer examples of purpose led non-insurance businesses, and you give a list of how to create a purpose driven carrier. What are some of the steps that carriers can adapt and implement today to drive innovation and change within their organizations? And just before you jump into the steps, maybe define for us, what is a change maker to you?
Amy: Well, let me start off to set the table on what purpose is because I think it’s becoming a little bit of a business buzzword with all the talk about purpose. To me purpose is the way people in the organization make a difference and derive meaning from their work.
A good purpose conveys a vision of a future state that may not yet exist, but that the company is putting all of its resources into moving, so that it can move towards that vision. So, it’s not a slogan. It’s not something that’s up on the wall in the coffee station. It’s something that’s really driving execution, capital allocation, and organization structure, how things get done.
So, if you think about an organization like Nike, their purpose is to use the power of sport to move the world forward. That’s very aspirational. You can start to see how that kind of vision actually translates into daily execution. So, for starters, one of the most important things that insurance companies can do is have a purpose, really think about what is... and really this has to happen at the top of the organization, in the C-suite and be something that’s bought into by the board. Really define what is their North Star. What’s the company’s vision of the future? Not just in terms of how big it wants its balance sheet to be or what it wants to be rated in brand recognition, or how much money it wants to make, but what customers does it want to serve going forward, what marketplace problems does the company want to solve, and then make sure the organization understands that purpose.
So, it requires a lot of communication and then start to dig into executionally, what does it actually deliver on that purpose? So, it’s a big lift for the C-suite to start to think about how are we going to allocate resources? Do we have the right skills? What’s the right structure? Do we have the right processes in place? Is our governance model appropriate to fulfill our purpose? Because I think oftentimes what stymies a lot of organizations and even the most successful ones when they say we need to innovate, and they honestly know that they need to, if they try to execute through the old ways, and the old ways may be fine for running a big balance sheet, maintaining the safety and stability of a major business, but they may be completely inappropriate and in fact can defeat the nurturing of new ideas, which require a whole different skillsets, processes, etc., to validate them and bring them to life.
Ron: I think that’s such an interesting way to put it, to bring them to life because, in some sense, that’s taking something from nothing and creating something from it. Is that the right interpretation?
Amy: Yes. Well, I think about the metaphor of what’s the difference between the big old maple tree in my backyard and plants that I nurture in a little greenhouse. Like why do you put seedlings in a greenhouse? Because if you put them outside, they get killed. They’re not ready to live in that environment. So, new ideas and that’s why accelerators..., we talk about incubators, in the startup world is that you need to create that special environment that can allow new ideas to actually be born, and take hold, and be given the time to demonstrate that they can grow into something that matters. But that takes a whole different standard of care than what we might apply to something that’s overly large and established. And it requires a different way of thinking about risk, which, of course, insurance is front and center, 24 by 7.
Ron: For sure, that’s such a great analogy. So, as a former chief innovation officer for Citi, you’re certainly familiar with being in the innovation hot seat. What are some of your proven approaches that you’ve implemented in the past to successfully drive innovation in the short term and in the long term? And is there any difference when you think about the two?
Amy: I think the big breakthrough for my team, and I speak primarily to my team at Citi was, I came out of the direct marketing business and the whole business model for direct marketing has always been and still is built upon testing and learning. We’re doing experiments, some things are not going to work, some things will work, and we’re going to always be in the cycle of testing, and experimenting, and learning to find new ways to improve the business. And that idea is built...it’s basically engineered into the business model. It’s engineered into the budgets. It’s engineered into how the organization operates. And we were there at the very beginning of companies realizing that they had to, at least in banking, had to really get their act together on digital. We saw the similarity, we saw the relevance of the direct marketing approach to digital and so, I think it still works, this idea of: you have to test to prove.
You won’t drive digital transformation or innovation on the philosophical argument. You have to roll up your sleeves, get dirt under your nails, find a few use cases that really matter to the business and start to test out, and prove hypotheses in live experiments.
I think that requires intense collaboration across the organization. It requires maybe some non-obvious people to get involved, mixing up the skillsets, having a diverse team involved. And by that, I mean, diversity of thought and backgrounds, and cultivating buy-in inside the organization. You know, when I started doing this work, I know there were people in all the organizations where I have done this kind of work, there are believers, there are skeptics, and there are people who are thinking big waste of money, why are we doing this? And you know what, that’s still the case. You have to figure out, well, who are the believers who really understand this and how can I get them to help me? Who are the people who I could maybe win over? And then how do I track progress, understanding that not everybody is going to be convinced out of the gate. So, I think you’ve got to have that mindset of realizing, it’s great to have complete consensus, but what you really want to do is build collaborative engagement with the people who want to be helpful and be part of this mission. I’ve always found those tend to be some of the most talented people in the organization. So, if you’re able to provide leadership on a vision of innovation and even just a couple of tests that you’d like to move forward, a lot of great people will jump on the bandwagon, and they’ll be eager to help you. They’re looking for leadership.
Ron: That’s right, they’re looking for leadership. That’s such a great way to put it. I think it ties well into what I want to talk about, which is culture because recently, culture, I think has been on the forefront. You’ll read a lot about people resigning and people blaming it on lots of different reasons, but one of the main ones being culture and I’ve read several articles emphasizing the importance of culture. I had the opportunity to speak with Megan Bock Zarnoch, the CEO and founder of Boundless Consulting, on a previous episode, about the intersection of culture and underwriting. So, I’d love to get your thoughts on the importance of culture when it comes to innovation and digital transformation.
Amy: I mean, I think culture is critical. You can be in a market or sector with the most remarkable opportunities with access to capital, with a talented team and if the cultural dynamics aren’t there, you will drive the ideas into the ground and drive the team away. So, what is the right culture? One of psychological safety, where people are not afraid to take risks and where failure is seen as learning. I hate the word "failure," so that’s why I said in the direct marketing world, people know we’re going to do tests and just like a scientist who does experiments, they don’t always work. And so, it’s like, oh, okay, that’s just the way it is, but if we don’t try, things will never get any place. So, you have to cultivate a culture where people understand that is part of what is going to make us successful and so people feel safe taking risks, and putting their necks out, and working on things that may take several iterations to pan out or may never pan out.
I think a culture where diversity is valued, so having people from different backgrounds, different life experiences. I’ve been really lucky to have worked for several global companies, where we had people literally from all over the world and really made a difference in the quality of thought on the team.
It’s one thing to bring different people together but is it an environment where people are listened to, where they feel they can articulate their points of view, and people are interested in what they have to say and what they think and can make a difference.
So, I think it’s all of those. Those are some of the dimensions. But I think, you can imagine, if on the other hand, it’s a culture of fear where people don’t trust each other, and where people don’t feel that management has their back on taking the risks that are inherent in innovation, they will not bring their best innovative selves to work. I’ve been exposed to those organizations and they’re frightening places. They cannot innovate because if there’s a climate of fear and mistrust.
Ron: That concept of safety is so important, and I think you keep coming back to this concept of iterations and all large-scale digital transformations, none of them happen overnight. It’s just not a thing. So, how do you as a carrier or, really, as an employer, ensure that the change agents, who are the most passionate and the ones who are taking those risks and sticking their neck out, how do you make sure that you empower them to continue to drive progress and secure executive buy-in and change the organization?
Amy: That’s a fabulous question. I think companies go down different paths on this. What some companies choose to do is they’ll say we are...our existing organization will kill any innovation that comes their way. So, the way we’re going to make this happen is we’re going to create a separate team, isolated from the business, and put them in a lab, put them in Silicon Valley, put them in someplace else and have them in a different reporting structure, etc. And we’ll give them a bunch of money and they will have to go off and innovate. I think that path ends up being very problematic and I can talk about why. The other path is the path of, can we within the organization invest R&D resources in building the capabilities, and a separate team that can try pilots to get things going, but do it in a way that engages other people in the organization, and protect that team, not by isolating them physically and organizationally, but by holding the entire C-suite accountable for governance and sponsorship in a way that they really have skin in the game.
I was having a conversation with somebody today about sponsorship and there are sponsors and there are sponsors, there are people who say, "Yeah, I’ll be...I’ll sponsor that project," and they become like attaboys, right? They don’t really do anything. They start missing the meetings and all that stuff. The sponsor really has to feel skin in the game and say, "I’m going to work towards ensuring that this team is successful because what they are doing is really important to the future of what I believe is right for the business.” So, I always believed in a more integrated model. I think it is more difficult on a daily basis. I think in the end, it’s the only way a large company can be successful. The problem at innovation, I think the problem with let’s go put a team in a completely isolated place is that ultimately to leverage the scale of the franchise, the cost structure, the other talents in the organization, the power of the brand, it’s got to come back and integrate with the mothership, and if you’ve gone off in isolation and validated something even if it’s really remarkable, you’ve got no buy-in. And large organizations, being what they are, with complex systems and politics and things like that, it’d be very, very hard to take advantage of the scale of the organization if you’ve been off on your own in a cave someplace, and then you expect people to buy in.
I was having this conversation last week, a woman who is the head of a big customer experience transformation at a major wealth management firm reached out to me. She’s having this exact problem. She was sponsored by the board to build the future wealth management experience. They’ve got it prototyped and ready to go, the organization has not been involved and people don’t want to support it because it was done without them. So, I think that’s a really important choice that management has to make and as I said before a lot of this comes down to leadership. You need outstanding leadership at every level of the organization to make this work.
Ron: For sure, and I think you actually hit the nail on the head there with that story of isolation, because we’ve experienced this, and I’ve talked with other founders and startups that have experienced this, where they’ve done projects with like an innovation group, which might not be directly related to the business, or they’ve done it in some other group and the different group didn’t like it. And long story short, that is one of the hardest hurdles to overcome. And oftentimes that isolation is the cause of failure for many projects. As you said, it could be a strategic decision from the leadership and that’s a-okay, but you have to decide because if the leadership is trying to build things in isolation and they have a strategic reason for it, then, they wouldn’t want the people to "sabotage" their success because they didn’t have the influence, which it sounds like that could have happened.
Amy: I mean, if you want to build a whole new business and you’re planning to launch with a distinct brand, going off on the completely separate strategy could be the right decision. But if you have an existing customer franchise, if you have existing distribution channels, existing infrastructure, and existing brand that you want to leverage, that in the end is the home for your innovation efforts, executionally, that means that you’re going to have to integrate. Whether it’s relative to innovation or anything else that happens in complex businesses, product development 101, sort of says, the key to success is to leave the gate with cross-functional engagement. So, you need to find a way to do that, and we did this very much in all the organizations I work with.
Again, thinking back to something I said before that in any organization, there are going to be people who see the future, they have a career runway and they’re like, "Oh my God, we have to change. Thank God somebody is leading the charge." There are going to be people in the middle who’ll sort of say, "Okay, I get it. I see this as possible, but you’ve got to show me." So, they’re on the fence, but a bunch of those people, you might be able to convince. Then there’s people who are like, nowhere on earth, I’m just going to keep hoeing the row, and this is what’s working. So, you have to kind of not worry about those...that third group, but you can, in any organization, you can engage people in those first two groups to be part of what you’re doing. And, through cross-functional teaming and having them come to your brainstorming sessions, give them credit for helping your innovation team be successful, you will build kind of an army of the willing over time. And what happens is you need to get that pipeline of experiments going and start to show people that success is possible, and the success is...and that there is a way to execute. So, part of success is not just a successful outcome on a test, but also that it is possible to make this happen. There is an execution path that’s feasible, that’s not going to kill the business, it’s not going to create risk to the balance sheet, etc., etc. So, you start to prove through action and impact that this is feasible, manageable, and controllable, and productive. You will start to enlarge the audience of internal stakeholders who want to be part of what you’re creating.
Ron: That’s right, actions speak louder than words. So, we’re going to take a quick 20-second break to tell you where you can find out more information and insights about insurance innovation. We’ll be right back.
[If you liked this episode of AI Wisdom, subscribe to our blog, Writing the Future: AI in Commercial Insurance at www.chisel.ai/blog for feature articles, interviews, opinions, and more.]
Ron: We’re back with our featured guest, Amy Radin. Let’s jump right into the next question, because we’ve been talking a lot about change and I think change is very daunting for an organization and for people, because sometimes they worry about their jobs and many other things. People dread it, not everybody’s accepting of it. And so, what advice would you have for carriers who are embracing emerging technologies, putting new practices in place, and gearing up to change behaviors in their organization, who are dealing with this change management process and hurdle?
Amy: Well, I think you have to start by, as I said before, establishing your North Star and vision for where you want to go, and helping and giving the organization clarity around what that is. So, during any change initiative, it’s not possible to over-communicate. But communication is a two-way street and I’ve certainly seen too many change initiatives where people say, “Oh yeah, it’s change, we have to communicate.” And it’s all one way out to the employees. I think, especially, given the turmoil of the last year and a half, it’s a really important time to have two-way communication and to really listen and understand what are people’s concerns about the change? What is their anxiety? What are their hopes? And employees will be full of fantastic input that management can use to shape the innovation roadmap, and also to figure out how to engage employees, and also how to minimize the impact of people who will unwittingly end up being blockers.
So, I think the two-way communication is really important, being very clear to the organization of where you want to go, helping people understand, again, what are you doing through action, not just talk, to establish or strengthen an environment of psychological safety that I talked about, and helping people understand how you are going to equip them.
You can’t just wake up in the morning and say, "Okay, we’re going to be innovative and now go be innovative." It really requires unique skills and capabilities. Part of empowering is making sure that you’re helping people develop the skills and that you’re investing in the capabilities that they need. One of the really sad things that I’ve seen companies do is they will say, "Our people can’t do it. We’re going to go hire new people." I think that’s really tragic because, yeah, not everybody is cut out to do every job, you wouldn’t want me to be an underwriter or an actuary, but there are people who can contribute to the innovation journey with an understanding of what it is you’re trying to accomplish. I think, giving your organization a chance to contribute and seeing where those people are and then just complementing them with the new skills that you may have to bring in from outside, and really getting that balance right is also really important. People want to feel included. It’s a very human, personal, emotional need. So be inclusive. Don’t write people off. You need their institutional knowledge, especially if you’re dealing with legacy systems and processes. You may need the people who’ve been around for a long time more than you need the cool new people who you hired from Silicon Valley because the institutional knowledge can end up being more critical to execution.
Ron: Certainly. I think that one of the most important things that people sometimes tie their identity and self-worth and other things to is success and how they’re viewed by their peers, and their boss, and their colleagues and all of those different relationships that they have. So, what would you say are the top five success criteria that people should be measuring when it comes to innovation, outside of just obviously, money?
Amy: Unfortunately, I don’t think there’s a single answer. I think you have to go back to what’s your North Star. What customers do you want to serve and how do you want to serve them? And then based on your best hypothesis of the business model that’s going to be required to deliver that North Star, what are the metrics that you want to be able to influence? So, is it penetration of new customers in a certain segment or a certain market? Is it about, is my vision going to be realized when I can expand relationships with existing customers? Is there a quality or a performance or a customer experience that I’m trying to create, and how would I measure that? So, I think you want to think about how you are going to know that your vision is succeeding. What are the levers? I think it’s really...I mean, this is a great question to ask, so I think this issue of metrics is one of the questions that confounds a lot of organizations. They give up because at the beginning, things are not measurable on traditional terms and so to whatever measurements you’re using for your current business, you have some little experiments that you’re doing over here and you try to apply those metrics, it becomes ridiculous, and you may need whole new metrics or interim metrics while you’re in the very early stages. If everything should tie back to, what’s your North Star, what is it you’re trying to accomplish, and then you ask yourself, “Oh, okay, that’s what I’m trying to do. How am I going to know when I get there? What drivers, the P&L and the balance sheet, maybe regulatory relationships, customer satisfaction, am I going to want to look to?” Ultimately, they should be metrics that tie back to the business model. What are the things that make your business financially healthy and sustainable?
Ron: Great words to use. So, what are your top two recommendations for companies who are stuck in the ideation phase, which is something that we often see at least in my experience? You talked about this like, sometimes it can be due to segmentation and isolation, and just a lot of reasons that companies can just be stuck in ideation forever. So, what do you do to escape that cycle?
Amy: That’s another really good question. I mean, first of all, you have to do an honest diagnostic to understand what’s holding you back. I mean, you’ve got to go take action. So, you’ve got to get out of...I think some companies get stuck in ideation because they’re not ideating against the vision of where the company wants to go. You can’t start ideating around, "Well, we need to be innovative. What should we do?" That’s like a ridiculous exercise. So, are you ideating against a solid vision of where it is you’re trying to go? And then I’d say, "What’s holding you back from actually going out with a prototype and testing it?" I think one of the things that happens with insurance is because of the regulatory environment, it can be very challenging to live test. Well, you can alpha test in a lab. You don’t need to go out in the market. Your first foray trying an idea does not need to be let’s code it and put it out there and try to sell something. You can do alpha testing. You can engage agents if you have an intermediated model. You have to say, "What’s holding you back from testing?" and then look at each of the obstacles and refute them. It’s a matter of getting out of the way, the orthodoxies of how you think the business has to run, right? Those are the things that hold people back and find small ways to conduct experiments and challenge your assumptions about how things "must be done." I think that is the only way to move forward. When you’re stuck, I feel like there’s some anxiety about taking that next step to action. And you cannot validate ideas in focus groups or just through internal judgment. You have to go and try them somehow to see, to get market reactions.
Ron: Those are some great tips. So, Amy, as we wrap up, what is one piece of wisdom that you’d like to leave our listeners with?
Amy: That’s a hard one. I think the insurance sector is an exciting time as far as innovation is concerned. We live in a world where certainly people’s sense of risk has become very heightened, especially, not just in the last year and half, but going back even to 9/11, and then even prior than that. There’s an increased sense of risk and desire for security, which fuels emotional needs for insurance. At the same time, there’s all kinds of issues with affordability, customer experience, distribution model. All of these, you can say either they’re problems or you can say, wow, there are huge opportunities for innovation in the insurance sector that can create new products and services, new businesses, new approaches to distribution, new customer experiences. As we continue to go through this transition from boomers to millennials driving the economy, there’s a whole new set of expectations about how people who are purchasing insurance and needs to own insurance, how they want to do business with insurance carriers. So, I think it’s a huge opportunity. I think the sector has to set aside its orthodoxies around how they need to operate, increase their diversity of their workforce, and really challenge themselves on their North Star and reinforce a culture where people feel safe taking risks. So, that’s a multi-part piece of wisdom. Hopefully, that’s a good synthesis of what we’ve been talking about.
Ron: I think that’s a great way to wrap it up and to summarize some of the things we’ve talked about. So, Amy, where can people find out more about you, your book, connect with you? Social media, LinkedIn, what’s the best?
Amy: On social media, I’m most active on LinkedIn, so you can follow me or connect with me at Amy Radin, just like my name. Visit my website, it’s www.amyradin.com. I’d love it if you would buy the book. It’s in eBook, paperback, hardcover, and audio, wherever eBooks are sold. And you can always reach out to me directly, firstname.lastname@example.org. I’m doing keynote speaking, I’m running workshops, giving talks, very available. I love helping people in complex businesses get their innovation efforts moving and given I’ve been where you are, I really, really enjoy sharing my own experiences to help other people be successful doing this work.
Ron: Awesome. Thank you so much for taking the time. And as always, if you’re looking to find out more about the latest and greatest in insurance innovation, please check out www.chisel.ai. Have a great day.
That’s a wrap for this episode of “AI Wisdom” hosted by Chisel AI and me, Ron Glozman. Thanks for listening.
Join us next time for more expert insights and straight talk on how AI and insurtech innovations are transforming the insurance value chain. See you on the next episode!